Just why is GW Community so Rude?

[Vanilla Guerilla]

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Rude community: the Age of Conan PvP Servers.
http://forums.ageofconan.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

Also, the class forums are a great source of entertainment.
http://forums.ageofconan.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

I'll second that. I've seriously thought about just not gaming anymore from reading their forums. 80% of in-game interaction with people has been pure garbage.

I was seriously hoping to recapture the magic of the GW community during it's initial release. Thinking maybe new people + new game = more helpful/friendly.

[StarrTheInsane]

Speaking of taking the time to learn things, sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you try to encourage people to use the wiki and forums, they just won't do it. I don't mind helping people, but I can't spend my entire night explaining what they could get from ten minutes of research on the wiki.

A big part of the game is research. I find that for as much time as I spend playing, I spend a relatively good portion out of the game reading skill descriptions and notes on missions and zones.

We have great resources available. Some of the most complete and easily-accessible information for any game I've ever seen. It's a shame not to use it.

Some have more patience trying to explain the value of these resources than others. A little rudeness comes from that. Less than other game communities, but it's still there.

[Snow Bunny]

Originally Posted by Stockholm

I think the 14-20 crowd are the ones that should get away more from the monitors and experiance the real world, the +40 crowd turn to the monitor to exscape the real world for a change after a day or week at the office, supporting these little online hooligans.

And it is frightning to see how the younger crowd act in any online community, they will have a rude awakening when they go out into the real world.

I'm in your 14-20 crowd (20) and I put in from 6:30-5:30 every weekday in the summer.
Don't assume that because I'm younger I know less about this shit.

Tyla's one of the most helpful players on this forum and he's 14.

From what I've seen your little assumption largely fails. Many of my ingame friends are younger and quite a bit more tolerable than most of the older players I know, but I don't draw a stereotype.



This community is peaches and rosebuds compared to the vast plains of gaming communities.


And for once, I agree with Zahr. The Age of Conan community is the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing worst group of sods I've ever met.

[fireflyry]

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The people who think the GW community is "rude" are the people who have a very, very thin skin.

I think this is a point of confusion in this topic.

I have a thick skin after gaming for years and I'm seldom offended by what anyone says to me in an online game including GW.That doesn't mean the "rude" behavior isn't there in comparatively larger volume than other MMO's I personally have experienced.

One does not have to be personally offended to observe the amount of trash talk in GW.

Originally Posted by bhavv

I have been wishing for a feature that can automatically log me in as offline when playing RA, because I normally forget to change my status when swapping characters, but I forget and then theres someone whispering me to cry about my build, reminding me 'Oh, I forgot to change to offline'.

/signs

[byteme!]

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

This idea of "nothing but the best being tolerated" is translated through this forum whenever anyone posts a build for help or criticism also. People of the community will only ever direct the person posting the build down one of the few "accepted" routes. For instance...someone posts a pretty decent Warrior build...it doesn't have Dragon Slash or "Save Yourselves!" but it could get someone through PvE quite nicely. The community will almost always channel that person down the route of having a typical "god mode" build, just like everyone else, and then have the audacity to complain about people using "cookie cutter" builds.

I'm not saying there's anything necessarily wrong with channeling a new player toward the "most effective" build, I just find it highly irritating that just about every Warrior build posted gets turned into a D-slash build, every Paragon build gets turned into an Imbagon build, every Elementalist build being turned into a Mind Blast build. I sometimes wonder if it's completely irrational irritation, because it's frustrating that there are, these days, very few builds which are considered by the community to be "acceptable"...anything else is cast out and the creator called every name under the sun.

I was going to write up an epic post but Celestial Beaver already covered it. Sums up my pet peeve about this community.

[Sora267]

Why, it's elementary my dear OP. It is simply because of the fact that:

Step 1: Rudeness
Step 2: ????????
Step 3: Profit!

[Silverblad3]

Been playing GW for sometime (3 years), most of the community is awesome, many of the folks I have met are really nice 'people'. I think the context of people posting can be intrepretted differently and is difficult to see what is being said. However, there are those that post very short and sharp replies without really being helpful or constructive, or even listen to the discussions taking place.

But I was rudely shocked recently, having been playing for 3 years, done elites areas etc no end when I enter HA. Smply amazing that regardless of their age (and these were not kids) the level of immaturity and they were supposedly 'guildies' and we were on vent........

I wanted to quit the guild and possibly stop playing the game. To be 'ranked', mocked and ignored was simply amazing. To listen to them talk 'AT' each other rather then listen to one another was like listening to 'uncivilised barbarians', and I do not mean to give barbarians any slight. Any level of humanity aside from the basic need to 'survive' was present. I was apalled that this game that is played for fun can turn what should be human people to such a base level.

You have my utmost respect PvP'ers for I could not lower myself to be so base, ever. I apologise to those PvP'ers who never reach such a low level and I hope they remain a bright beacon of hope to those that want to enter HA/PvP.

So, my point is, anyone can be reduced to a base level with little or no respect of others feelings or experiences regardless of age or experience. There are extremes you will find, but at the end of the day you do not need to be rude unless they are, even then you can walk away and be content knowing you have a level of civility and respect.

Don't make others sad.

Silver

[Avarre]

The nature of team competition is going to cause this in most cases. Nobody wants to be pulled down by the failures of others. I know if I meet a weak player in HA on the other side, I'll just wish him luck with the game as I wreck his run, but when on my team, I'm going to be a bit aggravated, because losing due to someone else's catastrophic failures is not fun. It's one thing if I know the person, and know they're trying to improve, or if it's a casual game, and so on, but when players gather to win, the weakest link doesn't make friends.

This is especially noticeable in PuGs, where the skill level between players can vary drastically, and the purpose of forming a PuG is to win - otherwise they wouldn't put as much emphasis into team selection.

Of course there are some players who go overboard in Guild Wars, and some on the opposite side of the spectrum, but the style of the game is a huge factor towards the general distaste for incompetence of any perceived sort.

[Silverblad3]

Originally Posted by Avarre

The nature of team competition is going to cause this in most cases. Nobody wants to be pulled down by the failures of others. I know if I meet a weak player in HA on the other side, I'll just wish him luck with the game as I wreck his run, but when on my team, I'm going to be a bit aggravated, because losing due to someone else's catastrophic failures is not fun. It's one thing if I know the person, and know they're trying to improve, or if it's a casual game, and so on, but when players gather to win, the weakest link doesn't make friends.

This is especially noticeable in PuGs, where the skill level between players can vary drastically, and the purpose of forming a PuG is to win - otherwise they wouldn't put as much emphasis into team selection.

Of course there are some players who go overboard in Guild Wars, and some on the opposite side of the spectrum, but the style of the game is a huge factor towards the general distaste for incompetence of any perceived sort.

There we go again, PvPers making assumptions. Although I agree with you to some degree, the weakest link is a problem, people handle it in different ways. Although what is the weakest link actually may not be the weakest link, the percieved 'weakest' relies on many factors, is the target the right one, is the timed strike right, was is it caught by infuse or prot, are they better then you in their builds or tactics, have they countered while you are calling your strike. All of these factors and so much more are taken into account. If you have epic failure on your team, guess what, you are part of the failiure and what it represents. Admittedly some folks cannot learn, or understand striking the called target in a sequence (depending on what you are running) or are just bad players, but guess what, the carefree attitude OMG FAIL blah blah rank rank just shows the lack of respect and rudeness that such competition breeds. It is great to win, I want to win, am all about winning and I hate failure just as much as anyone. But I do not need to ignore them, be rude to them or rage, and guess what, sometimes it is not their fault, but the blinkered PvPer knows they are right all the time, they are god in their small world of ruining other peoples experience. Now when you beat another team, that is different, GG and move on.

I know I am not a weak player, not in pvp either and I will admitt the reason I want to PvP is to better myself, improve and learn which I have comfortably done so many times, I am sure others are in the same position. Have I ever been frustrated by failure, more so then anything, I do not have time to waste when I play, I can be doing so much more in and out of game. No one wants to fail. What is failure is the incompetance, attitude and perceived 'e-peen' you get from PvP. Something that has taught me a valueable lesson, join them. Be as ruthless as you can, call them names including your team mates when they fail because it seems that is what you as a PvPer are saying and promoting, I hope not Avarre, as you have made several good posts.

I guess this elite attitude transfers to guru, which is sad as sometimes they reply rudely, seem arrogant and dismissive. It is funny that such perceived 'elite' attitude demonstrate inadequanceies in some people at a deep level. Anyway, all this makes me sad, need to go and be ruthless

Silver

[Ctb]

I was seriously hoping to recapture the magic of the GW community during it's initial release. Thinking maybe new people + new game = more helpful/friendly.

I don't see how you could have expected anything more out of them. Did you happen to pay any attention at all to how the game was "promoted" by its fans, pre-release? They spammed other game forums with messages that, essentially, boiled down to:

"AoC is awesome, your game sucks, and if you disagree you're just a stupid nub and a carebear!"

I mean, no offense, but anybody could have seen that the AoC community was going to be complete crap at least two or three months before the game even came out. The fact that so many of its fans appear to be about as pleasant as a hyena's arse has been one of the major reasons I've not even bothered to try it. If I want a bunch of mental midgets insulting me anonymously across a copper wire, I'll go visit /b/.

Actually, that wasn't fair to /b/...

[Snow Bunny]

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

This idea of "nothing but the best being tolerated" is translated through this forum whenever anyone posts a build for help or criticism also. People of the community will only ever direct the person posting the build down one of the few "accepted" routes. For instance...someone posts a pretty decent Warrior build...it doesn't have Dragon Slash or "Save Yourselves!" but it could get someone through PvE quite nicely. The community will almost always channel that person down the route of having a typical "god mode" build, just like everyone else, and then have the audacity to complain about people using "cookie cutter" builds.

I'm not saying there's anything necessarily wrong with channeling a new player toward the "most effective" build, I just find it highly irritating that just about every Warrior build posted gets turned into a D-slash build, every Paragon build gets turned into an Imbagon build, every Elementalist build being turned into a Mind Blast build. I sometimes wonder if it's completely irrational irritation, because it's frustrating that there are, these days, very few builds which are considered by the community to be "acceptable"...anything else is cast out and the creator called every name under the sun.

I'll agree Beaver, that calling a player crappy, etc, for posting their build and asking for feedback, is inappropriate. It's when a player posts a build asserting its superiority over others that it will get torn apart.

Largely, I believe that the "Nothing but the best" approach derives from our collective frustration with Pugs and skillbars we encounter ingame.

We have those threads with "Post the worst skillbars you've seen". Well, with any luck, the more players that frequent this forum seeking improvement on their builds, the less posting that will happen in those threads. I recall once on PvX recently where I called a player and his build, "pure shit". He was blindly advocating some garbage axe build, explaining how it was much better than everything else out there. Correctly, I called the build bad, but I was admonished by an adminastrator, Defiant Elements, for my unhelpful, if correct, statement. I replied that "It's correct, and constructive in that I provided options." DE's reply was that "We aim to teach, and to improve the playerbase in the slightest regard that we can".

In a way, that applies here. If we allow some weak Whirling Attack axe build, or some hundred blades/whirlwind attack spam build, our quality control, mainly in the Campfire PvE forums, begins to slip.

I'll agree with you that channeling someone down the absolute line is bad. I personally hate Dragon Slash, and my guildies (with chagrin) have watched me played an Eviscerate SY! warrior.

When a player posts a warrior build involving Watch Yourself!, it's good that we recommend SY! instead. When a ranger build is posted, focusing on damage and wondering why his damage is lower than that of say, a Dervish, then we explain that the Ranger is a more suitable interrupter, but if you're looking for damage, the Splinter Barrage build works just great. A paragon posts a support/damage build. Sure, that's fine, but this imbagon build works much better and accomplishes what you're trying to accomplish.

If an elementalist posts a water build and players try to direct him towards a MB/RI fire ele, then yes, we're being stupid. But otherwise, when he posts "LF a Fire ele build", well then, it's appropriate that the player in question is diverted towards the cookie cutter.

Yes, we channel more players down a rather worn pathway of conformity, but considering the terrible quality of most pug bars, wouldn't you prefer conformity to mediocrity?

Yes, we may be rude in that we largely disregard innovation, but to an extent, innovation these days, especially in PvE, is difficult to come by in a fashion that it will be comparable, equal, or better with regards to cookie cutters.

[DarkNecrid]

There we go again, PvPers making assumptions

And then you went on a huge post about assumptions based on bad experiences with one guild, to the point that you not only assume Avarre is like that, and assume a bunch of shit he does, but you basically lump an entire group of people based on bad experiences with 7 others.

ic.

totally not hypocritically at all...

[Silverblad3]

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

And then you went on a huge post about assumptions based on bad experiences with one guild, to the point that you not only assume Avarre is like that, and assume a bunch of shit he does, but you basically lump an entire group of people based on bad experiences with 7 others.

ic.

totally not hypocritically at all...

Actually your making assumptions too, we all do in fact as it is part of the process that we use to think through problems and issues, what if, what do we know, is this the best choice, what will happen if? Regardless, I talk to many people on line, on vent and those share the same concerns, I just provided one example to illustrate the extreme nature of what can happen. A good friend of mine will never PvP again, based on several bad experiences and she is a great player. Where as I will just soak it up and go back in like last night and I had fun.

By the way, I see the same old rage and immaturity in many of the PvP areas. We all know it exists and there is a lot of it. As there are no rules on this, people feel free to 'let loose' and thus perpetuates the trend which I 'assume' Avarre was alluding to?

Anyway, the hyprocrisy of making assumptions based on personal experience is one of fact from your perspective and there are always two sides to the tale. But it does seem the current 'rage' to rank/ blah blah and Avarre does hint at, my earlier post does say those who are nice, please remain a bright beacon of hope to potential PvPers because I have met them too, in fact I PvE with them in Elite areas. I have had other bad experiences when it involved others getting shouted at, and I really did feel sorry for them.

I make no assumptions on what Avarre does or does not do, he supplied the information in his post to let me make an informed decision, just like you, whether it is correct or not is another debate.

But you do make a good point, one of the things that makes people rude is based on what assumptions you have of them, that pre-determined 'prejudice' (no rank = noob, not the main build = noob etc) will often skew your perception and train of thought and that is why I try and give everyone a chance and sometimes a second one, and then go mental /rank rage...... JK

Silver

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Silverblad3

Although what is the weakest link actually may not be the weakest link, the percieved 'weakest' relies on many factors, is the target the right one, is the timed strike right, was is it caught by infuse or prot, are they better then you in their builds or tactics, have they countered while you are calling your strike. All of these factors and so much more are taken into account. If you have epic failure on your team, guess what, you are part of the failiure and what it represents.

I'm not referring to things like that. I accept a team properly managing to outplay members, and any experienced player can identify when someone is simply outdone rather than underperforming.

I'm talking about things like the flagger letting the enemy team into the base to gank the lord. Or backline players ignoring position calls and letting the entire team wipe. You might call them little mistakes, and they are, but it is consistency that divides a top 50 guild from a top 10 guild.

There we go again, PvPers making assumptions.

I'm not a 'PvP' player, I play all aspects of the game, PvP the least of all. Don't make assumptions. You know as well as I do that every part of my post is relevant to PvE groups to a degree as well.

all them names including your team mates when they fail because it seems that is what you as a PvPer are saying and promoting, I hope not Avarre, as you have made several good posts.

Belittling/insulting isn't a good thing, but rage gets things done.

[Silverblad3]

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'm not referring to things like that. I accept a team properly managing to outplay members, and any experienced player can identify when someone is simply outdone rather than underperforming.

I'm talking about things like the flagger letting the enemy team into the base to gank the lord. Or backline players ignoring position calls and letting the entire team wipe. You might call them little mistakes, and they are, but it is consistency that divides a top 50 guild from a top 10 guild.

Consistency comes from practice, some folks have raw talent and skill, others have a learning curve, short or long. Top 50/10 split should have weeded out the weak already but is there a reason to be rude to them if they have not? Whose fault is it that they let this person still fail, or have not taken the opportunity to tell them honestly but in a pleasant way, not so that they feel like they want to stop playing GW and leave. GW and GW2 will need players, GW2 more so if it is to be sucessful.

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'm not a 'PvP' player, I play all aspects of the game, PvP the least of all. Don't make assumptions. You know as well as I do that every part of my post is relevant to PvE groups to a degree as well.

We all have to make assumptions, will that pug monk be able to SB on calls, will that ranger lay down FS or we have to tell him each time, we hope so.....He is rank 8 Luxon, he must be good. Anyway, Avarre I was not making assumptions about what you do and do not do, your a free individual with a view, good points and opinion, dont worry I read your open letter to Anet and know that you PVE too.

Hence I try not to PUG when I can help it and go with people who are friends/good players.

Originally Posted by Avarre

Belittling/insulting isn't a good thing, but rage gets things done.

Agreed, but there is no need to rage, we all feel the pain when we lose, I do more so then I let on to people, but I really do not feel the need to rage at someone. The raging and belittling does come through on some posts made here, they are out to be better then someone else, demonstrate how clever they are, pick out flaws or mistakes in posts, builds and basically mock them, do we really need to do that? Is that what the community should tolerate?

Anyway, I lilke PvP, all aspects of it, I just hate the way some folks treat other people whether they deserve it or not, to me it seems it is more predominate in the PvP areas, it is not a nice way to behave to a fellow human being unless they were being a real annoying pain, you know the type?

Keep playing, have fun and be

Silver

[Kusandaa]

I used to play in my high school's soccer team and despite we had sore losers we've never broken a fight because the goalie missed the ball. And IMO soccer was more competitive than a video game.

The last time I've been in PVP was with a few friends and some PUGs - team leader had appointed me to an ele spiker. He knows I haven't played ele a lot even in PVE and that my PVP experience was minimal. It was the same thing for the other spikers; we're not ele players, mine's always been a farmer as I find nuking extremely boring. I told the team leader I'd most probably eff things up at first, implying a "give us time to adjust to our builds".

But nope, he raged after our first wipe. He left the team, left the Vent channel and I've barely heard him after.

I don't know how you expect players in new situations to run things perfectly the first time, and it's the same in PVE. I've been in farm runs with new people and some want to learn...

But in the end it comes down to this point: People expect probably too much from others. He expected me to run the build flawlessly because I've been playing GW for 3 years and I expected him not to rage at us.

My friends find me over-cautious sometimes because I have this approach of "my team might've never done this before, I better guide them around" while when I'm in an area I know, I hate being told what to do because I know my own role. And when I don't know the area I'll ask questions about it, what I need to focus on, what would be good alternatives to run, etc.

[Fril Estelin]

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

and I expected him not to rage at us.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable expectation from me. Trying to use raging to push people into this or that direction seems to me either like masochism, or misguided human relationship. The frontier between begin "strict" and being "harsh" is very subjective, but when emotion (rage) comes into the equation it's rarely a good thing. And what's even more astonishing is how people loose the big plot, it's a game and what is "lost" is not worth that much anyway (unless you're in the PvP part that rewards you with real prizes, but even then raging is surely not a sign of maturity for someone who wants to get "real").

[Crom The Pale]

Bad behavior happens at ANY age.

Anyone can have a bad day, login and just be set off by some simple little off the cuff comment.

Players that are rude on a daily basis are hard to spot, because people stop playing with them

I have seen verbal fights break out in AB simply because 2 teams wanted the same exit......

I have seen people asking simple questions in LA get torn apart by some random stranger for no apparent reason...

But then I have also seen a person spam the same question 20 times after its been answered...inciting the rude responce.

I have seen 2 people in AB fighting over a gate when 3/4 of one players teams is at another gate.

There are some people that go looking for conflicts and others that just stumble into them.

I would have to say that at least 90% of the GW player base are good people 95% of the time, but we all have our bad days!

[Shadowspawn X]

Originally Posted by Avarre

Belittling/insulting isn't a good thing, but rage gets things done.

What exactly does rage get done? It doesn't inform the new player of his mistakes , but it does make you enemies and create a pool of people who hate you. When I have pvp'd in HA pugs to be honest the people raging don't even know why the team is not performing they are just lashing out on any weak minded person that is pathetic enough to let the asshat get away with it. I've seen players do their job perfectly, but then some jerk tries to make them a blame magnet when they have nothing to do with the loss. Many ragers make noise to deflect attention from themselves or their friends and knowingly attack innocent players. You must be very careful when you unleash venom at people as it rarely serves a purpose other than screwing up everyones precious leisure time and ruining their day. I'm not a good pvp'r but I make my own pugs 90% of the time when I do play HA and it can be very difficult to discern what is going wrong when an eight man team is going down the crapper. Raging isn't going to fix anything if someone is blatantly not fufilling their role such as refusing to maintain an aegis chain or staying on their target then its easier to replace them rather than rage. Usually raging is just unnecessary noise. Best times I've had in a pug didn't include raging.

[Kusandaa]

I remember back when I ran 3-4 groups of ToPK daily, and my days as I'd learn the puller's run. During those days I got so much experience (both points and general GW experience) that a lot of the stuff I learned there today still help me in the things I do, and it's made me one of the dedicated pullers, tanks, frontliners and well, general party leader of my entire alliance.

Back when HiDE started, in 2007, I was already a fast ToPK puller. Actually it had started in my previous guild, and I'd often run with guildies. After a while, HiDE ran 8/8 guild groups almost daily, and on slow days we had at least 3 to 6 people up for it. We's witch every now and then but usually, we had our guild monk, MM, orders, backup b/p's, etc. Everyone had a spot in the team and everyone knew what the other was doing.

When you know your core team very well, you can focus on the PUGs. By the end we were running 7 guildies and a PUG. If there was a green dot around the puller on the radar... it was the PUG in 99% of the cases (the 1% was a lagging guildie). Let me tell you one thing: you spot the green dot FAST and you know who it is. Even when your guildies aren't with you, that green dot beside the puller, you spot it fast anyways.

2 years later and it hasn't changed. I spot the green dot no matter what my position is - don't try pulling a fast one on me, if you're outta my aggro bubble I've got you highlighted already... and I've probably been watching you for a while. If I get mad at you, there's a reason, because with the exp. I pulled in ToPK I know there are several reasons why someone's outta your general aggro range: l

- Lag and other issues;
- Inexperience (but willing to learn);
- Arrogance;
- Desire to take over;
- Sabotage;
- Idiocy.

I can deal fine with lag and other IRL - or online - issues. Inexperience, I won't go mad at the guy because I was in the same spot before. I had to learn as well.

Arrogance... depends of the level. If you try to take over me and don't give me any reason or tips on what I'm doing wrong, I'm sorry but you're pretty annoying - give me tips instead and I'm willing to listen if you make sense.

If you try to sabotage or leech I'll make sure the monks get you before you get us.

And if you're an idiot, you probably deserve what's coming to you: me going nuts at you because you don't listen and about to waste my time and everyone else's.

And I escalate. You haven't listened during all the run? You're an idiot. You've improved after the second or third time? S'fine by me, we all make mistakes and we're not all veterans who's been running the same area for the 500th time.

However, I notice that a lot of people, when they are in lead, WILL go nuts at the first time someone messes up - which is what I was describing in my earlier post. Even worse, they'll rage after a death, a wipe.

And they are who? The people who use way too much netspeak, don't reply half of the time, aren't paying attention to their surroundings, refuse to take decent advice for builds (I'm not asking for 100% efficiency or cookie-cutter bars). The same people I grow wary of when they'd get in my b/p groups.

Now THESE folks are rude.

The builds have changed - the behavior hasn't.